HD DVD group claims 150,000 dedicated players sold

And tomorrow we will see another article from Blu-ray saying how much they have increased the numbers of their sales. Its all a numbers game.

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The HD DVD format has seen strong sales and growth lately due to aggressive promotional efforts including a $100 instant rebate on its entry-level HD-A1 HD DVD player.

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Just a correction: The rebate is on the 2nd gen entry level HD-A2 and not the 1st gen HD-A1.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/show/637

The keyword to this statement is "150,000 dedicated players". Their saying 150,000 HD-DVD players, not game console addons (XBox 360). They made this statement like they did too cut out Sony's PS3 sales numbers. Take the PS3's Blu-ray drive out of Sony's tally of Blu-ray drives sold and HD-DVD would be ahead.

What a pointless war,what exactly didnt they agree on?

Originally posted by thegrunt:

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What a pointless war,what exactly didnt they agree on?

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lol, well you see there competing to win the High Def. format war. So neither one is going to just agree and go on.

let's see,, a format war.. the score sony (Blu-ray) 0,, everyone else 3.. sony lost beta (great recorder), lost music disc (they sucked), and lost memory stick (only works w/sony). Now there Blu-ray comes in @ $1000, HD is now $300. HD is backed by microsoft,, boy I wonder, who will win? By the way, isn't the guy in charge of ps3 sales on the suicide watch, after wii kicked it's ass?

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Originally posted by thegrunt:

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What a pointless war,what exactly didnt they agree on?

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lol, well you see there competing to win the High Def. format war. So neither one is going to just agree and go on.

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Yeah I KNOW that but what as in terms of the disks didnt they agree on space,etc?

Sorry if I insulted you, just the way I read it I got the impression you had no idea they had competing standards. And in relation to your other question, its not like they were holding hands doing the high-def. thing together and then had 2 separate ideas of how things should be and then split. In reality the corporations have never agreed or really worked with each other on anything. Well we will see who wins.

What does it matter.If it plays HD-DVD or Blu-ray then its a player no matter what.If HD-DVD pumping there chest over 150,000 standalone thats sad.I'm curious to see how many HD-DVD add-on been sold because i think there has been more HD-DVD Add-on sold than HD-DVD standalone which make there argument even more stupid.To be honest this whole format war stuff is really getting senseless.

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Back when it was time to negotiate the details of the DVD format between all the industry players, there were also two competing candidate formats. But Philips and Sony caved and abandoned their MultiMedia Compact Disc, and agreed to go along with Toshiba's SuperDensity Disc. The result was DVD - a single unified format from which we've all benefitted. What was the result of that? Toshiba made millions off the patents for the DVD disc structure, which Sony lost out on. At an industry conference last year, Warren Lieberfarb revealed during a panel that, right after standard DVD launched, Sony approached him about the need to start working on the high-def version (understandable given that HDTV broadcasting was already taking off in Japan and Europe), but the DVD Forum felt it was too early and wasn't interested. So Sony started working on their own high-def format. It's hard for us to fault Sony for not wanting to lose out on such massive royalty profits a second time. Certainly, Toshiba had no interest in sharing some of those royalty fees during the attempts to negotiate a single high-def standard. In any case, as a longtime manufacturer of video equipment, at least Sony has a legitimate reason to be in the game.

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http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/soapbox/soap060107.html

That Looks to be the reason why these companys couldnt compromise and make one format, instead we get screwed.

Back on topic, did anyone else notice that ONLY Toshiba are releasing cheap HD-DVD players?(other than the supposed Chinese players HUGHJARS keeps going on about, to be released soon) Would that mean they are having huge loses per unit? why arent other company's releasing HD-DVD players at competitive prices? Is it because they cant keep up?
Also the PS3 is obviously having some effect on BD sales, although minimal. If HD-DVD has more stand-alone units sold and yet BD movies are still selling more (again, only minimal difference) then it would follow logically that there are at least a few PS3's either being used as stand-alone's, or people are using it as a game console AND a BD player-So its doing what Sony wanted.

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong but didnt Sony have huge part in the creation of the CD? I think it was them a Pioneer or something...

:D ;)

Originally posted by Andrew691:

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did anyone else notice that ONLY Toshiba are releasing cheap HD-DVD players?

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- Other HD DVD hardware players are coming this year.

The basic point in all of this is that these are still very very early days in this area and things can very easily change
(as Samsung & LG show only too well).

You'll also find some of that BD CE support isn't quite what it seems, there has been rebadging going on with the BD stand-alone players
(Philip's BD player is a rebadged Samsung and the Sony is a rebadged pioneer).

But who's kidding who here, eh?
BD died long ago without PS3.
BD = PS3 right now.
That's been both it's tactical and short-term strength but it's also BD's fundamental underlying strategic and long term weakness.

BTW expect at least one more (and possibly a 2nd) known brand Japanese company to follow LG & Samsung's 'lead' and abandon their current 'BD exclusive' hardware manufacturing status by the end of this year.

LG has a dual format player out now, Samsung has nicely spec'd dual format machine imminent, Onkyo has just launched their 1st HD DVD player, Kenwood is launching one for the auto sector very soon and then, of course, there's the .....

Originally posted by Andrew691:

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(other than the supposed Chinese players HUGHJARS keeps going on about, to be released soon)

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- .....and there's nothing "supposed" about them.

There are 3 brands of Chinese HD DVD players due in the USA in Q3-Q4 this year......and that has nothing to do with anything coming in any possible 'Walmart deal(s)'; that's a fact.
Prototypes have been publicly shown at trade shows too, that's also just a fact anyone can check out.

Dismiss them as fantasy if you like but you'll be the one looking silly in a few of months when they arrive.

Toshiba licenced them to China in 2005, fact.

Microsoft signed a deal with Broadcom at CES in jan 2007, fact.

The really big deal here is that they are going to be SoC 'solutions' (instead of being something close to a a mini-PC in the box), again fact.

That means players that are enormously cheaper than even the players Toshiba are turning out right now.....and that's a fact you can take to the bank.

Of course it's perfectly possible & feasible for BD to release their own SoC solution too......

......but then they are still lumbered with their fundamentally more complex & expensive BD drive mechanism & they still have no licencing deals signed with the Chinese.

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The HD DVD Promotional Group has taken a leaf out of the Blu-ray Disc Association's (BDA) PR book by claiming it is winning the format war - at least in stand-alone player sales.

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The same PR playbook is right. Competition is very good but this chest thumping on both sides is getting tedious.

Just give us the good hardware.
Just give us the good software.
Keep the prices falling.
That's all that matters.

Whether one wins or not is immaterial.

ADDED:

Now this I don't understand. Yesterday they touted their numbers.

Today they lower their sales expectations by 44%:

http://www.reuters.com/article/technolog...T16250120070612

I have no idea what their marketing strategy is.

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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The same PR playbook is right. Competition is very good but this chest thumping on both sides is getting tedious.

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- I agree, but at least it's not the same level of idiocy as that 'we've already won' BS the BDA were spouting in Jan 2007 at CES.

They do have a point too.

Excepting the PS3 and counting genuine BD stand-alones BD is far behind HD DVD stand-alones.

IMO PS3 has tunred out to be a decent short-term tactical card for the BD side but it has failed to shift the huge numbers of BD retail movie discs expected.
IMO and in overall strategic terms the now almost total reliance on the PS3 is little more than a deep flaw and disadvantage to their strategy.

You can be certain of one thing in this though, you'll not be seeing anyone on the BD side of the fence claiming they expect stand-alone sales to the tune of approx 1 million by the end of the coming 6 months to 2007 year's end.
(nor nothing even remotely close to that number)

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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Now this I don't understand. Yesterday they touted their numbers.

Today they lower their sales expectations by 44%:

http://www.reuters.com/article/technolog...T16250120070612

I have no idea what their marketing strategy is.

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- Personally I think this is simply a recognition of reality and some realism creeping into things.

We know the PC drives have been delayed (it looks like their efforts have gone into making slim HD DVD drives - which they say they are going to include in every laptop they make).

It's a forecast of 1.8 million sales down to 1 million from Toshiba alone......and it's a little complicated by the fact that their new 1 million sales forecast is to the end of calander year 2007 whereas previous estimates went to the end of financial year 2007 (which is actually in april 2008).

It'll be interesting to see how close their forecasts are
(they're not the only company involved in this 'format war' to have made claims that fell well short of reality, right? ;) ).

I know the numbers can be a little too optimistic. What I don't understand is why they have to dampen their expectations while they're in the middle of a big promotional push with their $100 off discounts and free discs. It just doesn't make sense.

Well if you want to be conspiratorial about it maybe they are dampening down expectations in order to exceed them a little later?

Frankly I wouldn't put anything past the marketing types.

I don't think it's a good way to instill confidence in your support base or to encourage future buyers. The timing is just off.

What puzzles me is how this much market penetration of standalones hasn't made a dent in the Neilsen/Videoscan sales ratios. It's still 66/34 in favor of BD for the week ending June 10th and 67/33 in favor of BD YTD. What makes this trend more puzzling is that there have been more HD-DVD titles in the release calendars and that Fox (a BD exclusive studio) is temporarily out of the picture.

My dual format friends and myself have theorized that:

1. Attach rates may be insignificant at this point as most new owners are probably renting more than purchasing discs.

2. Many of those who bought the A2's at the lower price are probably already owners of 1st gen models and the A2's are their second players.

3. The Top 10 sales titles are usually new releases. Catalog titles are not really selling well and Universal releases lean heavily on catalog titles.

Just theorizing.

eatsushi I think you're forgetting something.

BD have just had a little run of supposed 'Blockbuster' (no ref intended) titles.
POTC, Spiderman, Apocalypto, Blood Diamond & Mission Impossible to name a few.

But for all that the ratio has stayed pretty constant despite that run of supposedly AAA Blu-ray titles being released.

This ought to have been a real purple patch for BD and yet we see little movement in the numbers.

It'll be interesting to see how things move in the coming months cos for the next few there are few BD releases coming and more HD DVD titles.
The boost in stand-alone numbers ought to be apparent (particularly as BD attachment rates are so poor and HD DVD attachment rates so much better).

It'll take a little while (cos with the 5 & 7 disc freebie HD DVD offer I doubt too many new owners rushed out to start buying straight away) but we ought to be seeing something by the end of Aug IMO.

BTW the Nielson stats I found are

1)week ending 6th May 60:40
2)Year to date 68:32
3) Since inception 57:43
http://www.videostoremag.com/news/html/b...rticle_ID=10649

I'd appreciate your link to the more up-to-date numbers there (and a look at the SI number).

Considering the lead BD is said to have with all those PS3s those are not what I'd call 'good' figures for Blu-ray and in view of the far lower number of HD DVD players out there right now those are very credible numbers for HD DVD IMO.

The Neilsen stats I quoted are from the current online issue of Home Media Magazine and are more recent.

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom061707/

Remember that Toshiba lowered its price of the A2 on April 1st and that of the A20 and XA2 on May 20th (as part of their promotion). We expected this to at least tip the Nielsen numbers in favor of HD but this didn't happen.

BD did have some blockbuster titles but HD DVD had the Matrix Trilogy.

BTW - Spiderman hasn't been released on BD and the release date is still up in the air.

Interesting observation there eatsushi.

So the lower hardware prices and the bigger number of titles in their release calendar haven't really made a difference with respect to the Neilsen/Videoscan ratios.

Originally posted by hughjars:

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BD have just had a little run of supposed 'Blockbuster' (no ref intended) titles.
POTC, Spiderman, Apocalypto, Blood Diamond & Mission Impossible to name a few.

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If I understand this correctly, what hughjars is saying is this: As long as BD keeps churning out these "blockbusters" they will negate any advantage the lower priced hardware gives to HD DVD.

Makes sense.

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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The Neilsen stats I quoted are from the current online issue of Home Media Magazine and are more recent.

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom061707/

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- Thanks for that.

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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Remember that Toshiba lowered its price of the A2 on April 1st and that of the A20 and XA2 on May 20th (as part of their promotion). We expected this to at least tip the Nielsen numbers in favor of HD but this didn't happen.

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- Yeah but like I said they were tied up with a fairly substantial freebie disc offer (five initially & then 7 on Amazon USA).

Same as happened with the PS3 & Casino Royale it'll delay the sales numbers that count (cos unlike money off vouchers freebie discs don't count).

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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BD did have some blockbuster titles but HD DVD had the Matrix Trilogy.

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- That's true, and if you count the 3 films individually it comes very close to the total peak week number reached for POTC.

(According to market research estimates from Home Media Magazine, the two "Pirates" films sold a combined total of a little less than 47,000 units, while the "Matrix" sets sold about 13,900 units = x3 41,700).

It's also true that Planet Earth sold more on HD DVD than BD (but I guess that is a refelction of the 'markets' each format has with PS3 owners less likely to go for something like PE.

Originally posted by eatsushi:

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BTW - Spiderman hasn't been released on BD and the release date is still up in the air.

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- Ah ta for that too, I hadn't realised it had slipped.
Anyways there was plenty of stuff that ought to have sold reasonably (bearing in mind the very small and immature state of the market).

Nevertheless far from pulling away from HD DVD these big releases merely saw the status quo maintained.

In fact I note the 'Since Inception' figure has fallen to 59:41.

I'm not saying that's the greatest news for HD DVD, it's obviously still a position in which they trail but considering there is said to be something like a 5:1 advantage in BD players to HD DVD players those numbers have got to worry BD strategists.

But this is all a little artificial anyways.

The 'war' is not going to be settled in 3mths, nor 6mths not even 12mths.
The top guys at Matsushita are talking 2.5 - 3 year time-scales.

In the same way the Universal guy was talking far more long term - in stark contrast to than the usual bickering and fanboy claims we are treated to here regularly.

Quite rightly all the noise and nonsense about imagining vast significant to these tiny numbers does not cloud the judgement of those involved when they talk seriously about this 'war'.

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This year, DVD standards will account for 95% of the global sales volume of all kinds of Optical Disk Drives (including players and recorders), leaving 5% for BD and HD DVD. But the proportion for BD and HD DVD will rise to 20-30% in 2010.
In addition, the shipment volume of desktop and notebook PCs equipped with BD and/or HD DVD burners/drives will reach an estimated 35 million units in 2010, accounting for 17.5% of the projected 200 million units for all PCs.

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http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20070620PD201.html

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So the lower hardware prices and the bigger number of titles in their release calendar haven't really made a difference with respect to the Neilsen/Videoscan ratios.

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We also suspect that this could be a reason why they reduced their sales projections by 44 percent.

Now that BD+ is available it would be interesting to see how the Fox and MGM releases affect the ratios.

Player sales should not count. Just because I buy a player doesn't mean that I will actually use it. Just maybe the player is the right size to jam under the kitchen table so the legs don't wobble. The possibilities are endless.

It has to be said that Nielson does not count on-line sales numbers.

....and with the immature nature of the market & with the non-PS3 end of things being heavily weighted towards the tech-savvy early adopter I'd say there is plenty of scope for Nielson to under-record HD DVDs performance.

Import numbers are alos missed for sales here in the UK (and on the avforums many owners - of either format - regularly mention that they prefer to import).

DVDempire stats are currently 48:52.

There are no 'empirical' stats to be had, you pays your money & takes your choice over which numbers you choose to believe.

With around 3.75 million PS3s sold I have no doubt Blu-ray lead in retail movies discs sold......but the BD attachment rate is extremely low and as HD DVD stand-alone sales continue to rise it is clear that even with a summer's worth of supposedly 'blockbuster' movie releases those millions of PS3s have done little to shift the overall split in sales numbers from the 60:40 - 70:30 range.