RIAA begins grade school propaganda campaign

As a parent of a 1st grader, I would like to say that if I ever find out that this program is at the school, then I will be complaining to the school board and taking further measures to get the program taken out of the school. Even an assembly given by the RIAA is not acceptable.
I like how the RIAA even tries to make a curriculum to justify having the program built into the school's classes.
1. Songlifters?!?! Really?!?! What about teaching about fair use in school???
2. Interviewing friends and family to find out how much they "pirate" in the eyes of the RIAA counts as math?!?! Why not just ask the students to count the number of ceilings in the room? Probably about the same for quality of learning. Also isn't this getting children to SPY? Just the RIAA looking for another way to infringe on people's privacy by getting others to do it for them.
3. Citizenship...well what about the artists? Aren't they citizens as well? I guess the RIAA wants to just have kids focus on the only people that will suffer as more of the real people behind the music starts to move away from major record companies.

"Music Rules!" as in the RIAA dominates all by their bullying and capitalistic appproaches.

I can see lawsuits arising from this program launch...

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In the math portion, kids are instructed to interview their family and friends to add up the number of times they've either songlifted themselves, or assisted in others' songlifting activities by allowing them to copy music.

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What a joke. Nothing like shoving some propaganda at some young minds. Hopefully teachers see this for what it is.

Sh*+

Around here teachers can't think for themselves so the teachers will probably go fo it :S

These RIAA tactics seem familiar.
Hmmm, let's see, an organization attempting to use children to turn in their parents.
I'm thinking 1940's Germany, youth organization immersed in propaganda, turning in parents . . .

i thought we are supposed to teach children to share

Originally posted by ElTwo:

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These RIAA tactics seem familiar.
Hmmm, let's see, an organization attempting to use children to turn in their parents.
I'm thinking 1940's Germany, youth organization immersed in propaganda, turning in parents . . .

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Someone also said.."Give me your youth and I'll give you a nation!"

thats only the first part, after they get the kids to fill out the times they have songlifted or helped people songlift, they will use that as evidence to prosecute them and anyone they have helped.

This tactic has been being used by the Left for decades. It's tried and true, and I have no doubt that it, or something like it will be standard fare in our K-12 schools.
Doubt me? How many of you who have kids have had them tell you that "Cigarettes are drugs"? or have chastised you for some perceived anti-green activity?
Songlifters??? LOL...

Originally posted by ThePastor:

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This tactic has been being used by the Left for decades.

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Don't be partisan, it's been used by both extremes.

And, by the way, cigarettes do contain drugs, and tobacco tea is an excellent insecticide.

The problem as I see it isn't liberals, or conservatives. It is GOVERNMENT. Unfortunately we cannot do without them at the present moment bc after all, we do need a military, and roads, police, etc (unless you want to look like Zimbabwe). In Canada it is much the same way with the RIAA and its cohorts. Both parties, liberal and conservative, are guilty of sleeping with the riaa in order to trample privacy rights.

Anti-theft = Nazi Germany?

Only on Afterdawn...

Originally posted by atomicxl:

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Anti-theft = Nazi Germany?

Only on Afterdawn...

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Funny, I don't recall the record industry raising a stink in the 80s and 90s with dual cassette boom boxes/stereos that could record cds onto memorex cassettes. The only thing that has changed is the technology, and the fact that we are now "traceable" if we don't use Tor. But that will be changing in a few years (if that). With programs like Anomos (and many more being worked on atm), people will eventually be able to download anything without snooping RIAA lawyers or police wanting to entrap some 15 yr old kid in a sex chat room. Supply and demand, and all that.

Sorry but we do not wish to devolve into a police state just yet...try again in 100 years when you've beaten the encryption.

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Originally posted by ThePastor:

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This tactic has been being used by the Left for decades.

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Don't be partisan, it's been used by both extremes.

And, by the way, cigarettes do contain drugs, and tobacco tea is an excellent insecticide.

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I rest my case.

And oh, can you name one Conservative Ideal which is propogandized in the schools like the anti-smoking or Global warming issues?

Originally posted by atomicxl:

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Anti-theft = Nazi Germany?
Only on Afterdawn...

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Once again someone, totally misses the principle and spins it so that it seems people are directly comparing the death of innocent millions to copywrite enforcement. Only on Afterdawn...
"anti-theft"....I guess we at least know one person who has been brain-washed.

Simple solution....according to merriam-webster "songlifter" is not a word. I will refuse to have my kid participate, and I'll report the teacher for promoting slang and propaganda. I will never encourage my kid to find ways to download free music. ButI will not discourage him from making a copy of a friends CD, or taping a song off the radio. Sharing is not stealing. And I won't allow anyone outside my house to teach my kid otherwise.

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Originally posted by ThePastor:

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This tactic has been being used by the Left for decades.

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Don't be partisan, it's been used by both extremes.

And, by the way, cigarettes do contain drugs, and tobacco tea is an excellent insecticide.

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I rest my case.

And oh, can you name one Conservative Ideal which is propogandized [sic] in the schools like the anti-smoking or Global warming issues?

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You extremists are so sensitive, but you must get a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions.

Nicotine a drug, is contained in cigarettes, and I personally use tobacco tea as an insecticide on my shrubs, it's common for many home gardeners to use it.

Since the phrase "conservative ideals," just like "liberal ideals," is vague to me, if you could list what you consider "Conservative ideals" I could then respond.

Clearly you believe anti-smoking and Global warming are liberal ideals. It's hard to agree with you on anti-smoking as a liberal ideal, unless all conservatives smoke, or believe in the right to smoke and thus believe they have the right to inflict increased health care and long term care costs on those who don't smoke, effectively placing smokers on a socialist path.

Global warming may be more of a conundrum, but I know I didn't get a sunburn when I was outside at the beach for two hours forty years ago.

Wow, I'm an extremist? I don't recall ever talking about my own political bent but ... ok... if you say so.
I also didn't realize that "Liberal Ideals" and "Conservative Ideals" was so confusing. I don't think I'm discussing things that the majority of people at least have a working understanding of.
But since you are curious you could probably sum the two sides, Right and Left up, thusly. Clearly this is a major simplification and the issues are vastly more intricate than this, but...

Left/Liberal: Governmental control in virtually every aspect of private life including medicine, business, land ownership, ect. Leaning towards Socialism in that the left tends to believe that if it's worth doing it's worth doing by the government.

Right/Conservative: Considerably less Governmental control in private life including a reduction in regulation for business, market based medicine and land ownership. Personal responsibility is the buzzword.

As for your cigarette comments: Fine, you are right. Cigarettes DO contain a narcotic called nicotine and as such can rightly be called a drug, but the conversation was about propoganda in the schools and my comment about cigarettes was refering to the fact that the schools tell their children to go home and call their smoking parents "drug users". This is clearly not the norm. A smoker is not a "drug user" in the classical sense. It's just the schools way of attempting to control your legal habits by propogandizing to your children.
It's the same thing with Global Warming. And yes, the Global Warming fiasco is a Left based ideal. When little Johhny or little Mary comes home and tells daddy that he's a bad guy because he is using the hose to clean his driveway this is very clearly a result of your children being propogandized by the schools into being good little "Earth First" soldiers.

I'm sorry you cannot see beyond the obvious difference in our beliefs to see the truth in my statement but I still ask: Please point out one Conservative ideal being propogandized in our schools.

I'm sorry to the rest of the readers for this tangent. I thought I was just making a simple comment about the way our schools are, in today's society and sorta thought that it was a fairly well known thing.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread... :D

Originally posted by ThePastor:

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Wow, I'm an extremist? I don't recall ever talking about my own political bent but ... ok... if you say so.
[snip]

Left/Liberal: Governmental control in virtually every aspect of private life including medicine, business, land ownership, ect. Leaning towards Socialism in that the left tends to believe that if it's worth doing it's worth doing by the government.

Right/Conservative: Considerably less Governmental control in private life including a reduction in regulation for business, market based medicine and land ownership. Personal responsibility is the buzzword.


I'm sorry you cannot see beyond the obvious difference in our beliefs to see the truth in my statement but I still ask: Please point out one Conservative ideal being propogandized in our schools.

I'm sorry to the rest of the readers for this tangent. I thought I was just making a simple comment about the way our schools are, in today's society and sorta thought that it was a fairly well known thing.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread... :D

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There it is, can you see it? Your bias, everything you call conservative you cast as good, and everything you call liberal you cast as evil and invasive. I have biases as well, that's fine, we all do, and should, to some degree.

Other people might see lack of regulation as favoring the big companies to the detriment of the vast majority of the people in the long run. Some people might see a failure to regulate and to enforce regulations as a Conservative agenda to cause the current fiscal crisis, and to further separate the wealthy from the poor. I don't, it's bureaucracy at its finest.


There is a difference between personal responsibility and personal interest; there is a difference between "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," and "do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Which category does "market based medicine" fall under?

In my view, governments are bureaucracies which tend to be self conserving and ever growing, and the same is true of current unions (a good idea, but not in its current virulent form).

I've never noticed Conservatism defined as "considerably less government," but I have noticed it as less Federal government, more State control (which means government control, just a different kind).

You're right, it (Conservatism) can't be simply defined. But the propaganda in our schools comes from the Teachers Unions, including heavy handed religious references as activities to do in school, with mere lip service paid to any other "belief," which really does fall into the Conservative propaganda category.

Technically, the spreading of any teaching is propaganda, the best we can hope for is a balance, and that has to come from the home.

I do see your point, there is a difference between "you shouldn't smoke," and "if your parents smoke they are evil drug users and should be shunned and shamed." It doesn't exactly smack of compassion, just like "songlifters" omits a discussion of 'fair use.'

stay on topic or heads might roll out the door!!

Not only does my 9 year old know haat I do, but she also understands why I... keyword I... view it as not theft, but also agrees, and asks me to get her the stuff not worth paying for. *Please note that she is getting the ENTIRE Beatles discography for her birthday, even though she already has it in FLAC*.... I hope that every parent out there is teaching the difference between downloading & theft. Especially that SOME things are worth paying for.
Anyone able to provide the entire copy of the "lesson" the RIAA is teaching, upon request? I'd love to read it.

the biggest pirate i know, basically the kid who introduced me to "the scene", had an fbi agent for a dad, and his dad didnt give a flying shit about his massive piracy, he actually condoned it. the back room where the computers where in his house was PACKED with copied games, music, dvds, you name it. covered half the floor of a 10 x 10 foot room with paper boxes full of disks. all for personal enjoyment.

id laugh a little inside each time we fired up a dvd we made with dvdXcopy3 and saw the fbi warning with an fbi agent sitting right next to us, as eager to enjoy the copied movie as we were.

its not stealing if you copy something, because the maker still has the original. he just didnt get the money he wanted, thats not theft thats just the movie company being little whiny nazi bitches.

Originally posted by georgeluv:

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its not stealing if you copy something, because the maker still has the original. he just didnt get the money he wanted, thats not theft thats just the movie company being little whiny nazi bitches.

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You really don't get the concept of intellectual property; there are legitimate fair copy issues that need to be addressed, but that is not what you discussed.

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Originally posted by georgeluv:

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its not stealing if you copy something, because the maker still has the original. he just didnt get the money he wanted, thats not theft thats just the movie company being little whiny nazi bitches.

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You really don't get the concept of intellectual property; there are legitimate fair copy issues that need to be addressed, but that is not what you discussed.

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The concept of IP is too far detached from reason and is flawed. It hasn't evolved with the digital age. Let's think of something - since the invention of the cassette recorder, have music sales plummetted year after year? Did the CD burner result in the demise of the music industry? IP laws are looking to stifle technology and innovation with ridiculous claims of perceived losses - with no evidence to back any of it up. PERCEIVED losses. When has anyone here started believing everything people told them without any proof?

What's the solution? How do we provide fair rights for both parties? I don't know. But I do know that what's going on now is not the solution. It will be a sad day when familes are broken up, homes are lost, parents are jailed because Junior told his teacher that his Dad copied "Dark Side of the Moon" from his college buddy. The landscape has changed and nothing is being done to evolve with the changes. A lot of money can be made from distribution if they could just think outside the box and stop trying to cripple innovation. Their business model is a sinking ship. There are plenty of lifeboats available, but they would rather try to plug the hole with their finger. They need to focus on distribution and stop meddling with how people enjoy music. Because soon there will not be anyone left to enjoy it.

An artists worth should be valued at what he/she actually sells. Not what is perceived that he/she might have sold. And who is really fighting for the IP laws? Is it the artists, who make pennies on every song sold? No, it's the fat cats who have no ties to the intellectual creations other than owning the artists soul. Corporate Media is trying to justify it's existense.

In the end people will support their artists. If that weren't the case, then the music industry would have dissolved with the invention of the cassette recorder and we would have no music today.

In answer to the "it is not theft because the original owner still has it...", That's not really true. It's called Theft of Service or Theft of IP.
Example: You rent a DVD and don't return it for 1 year. Did you steal it if you eventually returned it? No, you stole the "service" that the store was unable to sell to others while you had the DVD.
Yes, "Theft of Service" is a crime and if it's enough damage, can be a serious crime.

IMO the thing that makes this whole thing so difficult is that there is no viable, legal means. That's our justification, right? The industry has not kept up with the times and does not provide the service that I want, therefore I'm justified in doing it the way I want to... That's really what's going on here.

Here's what I was considering the other day. See what you think.
Music is now being hoarded on large MP3 players or on HD's. Hoarded by the GIGS!!! Music that will never been listened to. Or, if it is, it'll be listened to once or twice. It's a collection of which a subset is only ever actually used.
The RIAA want's to charge for each and every existance of that song in digital form. That's just wrong. Do they charge for each and every listener to a radio station? Our MP3 players are now just our own personal radio stations. The cost of music should be based on either an ALL INCLUSIVE model, where everything is available at all times for one reasonable fee or a pay per play model (never would be doable) which doesn't penalize you for having a massive library that you never or hardly play.
How to do it? If I knew that I'd be rich! :D

Grabbing music is not wrong. It harms no one and the musicians still get their concert venues filled so that they can sell their 1.99 tee-shirts for 34.99. It's promotion. The labels have been raping their clients and customers for far too long. Pay back is a bitch!

Besides................

This is how I see it. GOD granted me the ability to circumvent the copy protection system and the know-how to pull music from a disc. I'm an IT professional, which helps. Many are just down right computer savvy. You have a problem with that...............?.......talk to GOD about the ingenuity and abilities he/she dishes out at birth.

Originally posted by ThePastor:

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In answer to the "it is not theft because the original owner still has it...", That's not really true. It's called Theft of Service or Theft of IP.
Example: You rent a DVD and don't return it for 1 year. Did you steal it if you eventually returned it? No, you stole the "service" that the store was unable to sell to others while you had the DVD.
Yes, "Theft of Service" is a crime and if it's enough damage, can be a serious crime.

IMO the thing that makes this whole thing so difficult is that there is no viable, legal means. That's our justification, right? The industry has not kept up with the times and does not provide the service that I want, therefore I'm justified in doing it the way I want to... That's really what's going on here.

Here's what I was considering the other day. See what you think.
Music is now being hoarded on large MP3 players or on HD's. Hoarded by the GIGS!!! Music that will never been listened to. Or, if it is, it'll be listened to once or twice. It's a collection of which a subset is only ever actually used.
The RIAA want's to charge for each and every existance of that song in digital form. That's just wrong. Do they charge for each and every listener to a radio station? Our MP3 players are now just our own personal radio stations. The cost of music should be based on either an ALL INCLUSIVE model, where everything is available at all times for one reasonable fee or a pay per play model (never would be doable) which doesn't penalize you for having a massive library that you never or hardly play.
How to do it? If I knew that I'd be rich! :D

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Ummmmm...........I disagree.

"Theft of service" is not valid. It's an arbitrary term to some degree. It's impossible to "steal" a service. A service is an exchange of a task or tasks from one individual to another. The rental example doesn't fly as the service is still in effect.........just not for THAT particular DVD. That DVD then needs to be replaced but the person that kept the DVD for a year did not force the rental store to NOT rent another DVD, whether it be replaced or just another copy on hand. A service is you painting my house for me fixing your car. I can't force you to paint so THERE IS NO STEALING A SERVICE!!!

Stealing is removing or taking property FROM another without permission. FROM is defined as a separation. Using this logic...............perhaps the actual CD should hire an attorney and sue me. Oooh Oooh.......how about the Amazon servers banning together and filing class action lawsuits.

Yeah.........I could see that............People's Court with a human defense on one side and a server or a compact disk on the other.

HA HA HA

hahaha.. nice, but by that view god also made gene simmons and prince (here boy.. fetch the slippers) .. god help us XD

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Originally posted by atomicxl:

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Anti-theft = Nazi Germany?

Only on Afterdawn...

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Funny, I don't recall the record industry raising a stink in the 80s and 90s with dual cassette boom boxes/stereos that could record cds onto memorex cassettes. The only thing that has changed is the technology, and the fact that we are now "traceable" if we don't use Tor. But that will be changing in a few years (if that). With programs like Anomos (and many more being worked on atm), people will eventually be able to download anything without snooping RIAA lawyers or police wanting to entrap some 15 yr old kid in a sex chat room. Supply and demand, and all that.

Sorry but we do not wish to devolve into a police state just yet...try again in 100 years when you've beaten the encryption.

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Not stealing = police state? We've been in a police state since about the same time as the Constitution was made.

You guys are crazy. Letting a friend borrow a CD is fair use. Making a copy for you to keep while giving him one is not. Downloading a copy for yourself and then giving it to dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of people so that they don't have to pay for it isn't. That has never been a part of fair use. If an artist wants their music given away for free, cool beans. I don't have any issue with that.

When artists don't want their music given away and the attitude is, "F you, i'm gonna give your CD away to as many people as possible." its not cool beans.

I don't understand why you guys don't see that. I can understand not caring about it, but its always crazy that you guys actually think that it's legal.

Not only that, but stopping piracy is not Nazi Germany or a police state like you guys like to say it is.

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Originally posted by atomicxl:

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Anti-theft = Nazi Germany?

Only on Afterdawn...

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Funny, I don't recall the record industry raising a stink in the 80s and 90s with dual cassette boom boxes/stereos that could record cds onto memorex cassettes. The only thing that has changed is the technology, and the fact that we are now "traceable" if we don't use Tor. But that will be changing in a few years (if that). With programs like Anomos (and many more being worked on atm), people will eventually be able to download anything without snooping RIAA lawyers or police wanting to entrap some 15 yr old kid in a sex chat room. Supply and demand, and all that.

Sorry but we do not wish to devolve into a police state just yet...try again in 100 years when you've beaten the encryption.

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Not stealing = police state? We've been in a police state since about the same time as the Constitution was made.

You guys are crazy. Letting a friend borrow a CD is fair use. Making a copy for you to keep while giving him one is not. Downloading a copy for yourself and then giving it to dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of people so that they don't have to pay for it isn't. That has never been a part of fair use. If an artist wants their music given away for free, cool beans. I don't have any issue with that.

When artists don't want their music given away and the attitude is, "F you, i'm gonna give your CD away to as many people as possible." its not cool beans.

I don't understand why you guys don't see that. I can understand not caring about it, but its always crazy that you guys actually think that it's legal.

Not only that, but stopping piracy is not Nazi Germany or a police state like you guys like to say it is.

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You don't understand because you don't try to understand.

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Not stealing = police state

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You seem to only address the extreme comments with your own extreme comments - that downloading/copying is stealing. Don't tell me something is stealing if you can't provide solid proof of exact monetary loss. Can you completely deny that it's also very possible that this type of distribution has helped the music industry?No one hear thinks it's legal to copy and share music. I think I can safely say that everyone is more pissed that it's illegal and lashing out on the tactics being used to promote fabricated loses. Since you seem to support existing and pending IP laws, you also probably truly believe that every digital instance of a song is money gained or lost. That is the disagreement here. Not whether or not it's legal.

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Downloading a copy for yourself and then giving it to dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of people so that they don't have to pay for it isn't.

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Once again, you are assuming that every download is lost revenue. That dozens, hundreds, thousands and even millions in sales is being lost. That is the disagreement. Not whether or not it's legal.

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When artists don't want their music given away and the attitude is, "F you, i'm gonna give your CD away to as many people as possible." its not cool beans.

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Once again, who is really fighting for this? The artists or the executives that control them? If I hear that an artist is raising a stink about his/her music being downloaded, I don't dowload it. I also don't even bother buying it or listening to it. And there is a relatively small number who complain. And then you have to wonder why they are complaining. Who's pulling their strings. Because every artist knows the inner workings of the business.

No, stopping piracy is not Nazi Germany (another extreme misinterpretation by you of what is being said). The tactics used are similar to one of the tactics used in Nazi Germany. Indoctriniation through children. This type of "education" does not belong in that grade level. It belongs in a High School/College setting, where it can be open for debate and where it's not being forced onto impressionable minds. What I don't understand (and you're entitled to your views) is how you can not be bothered in the least by the proposed math portion of this propaganda. Or at least look further into it.

Honestly, your comments are just like those you respond to. One extreme answering another extreme, with no intent on getting involved in a debate over important issues. You firmly believe that copying and sharing is outright stealing. That's fine. I have no gripe with that statement except that I respectfully disagree. And I've already explained why. But what I don't understand is that you "don't understand" any other point of view. It's one thing to say that you don't agree. But not understanding is puzzling.

The Theft of service, DVD rental comment I made above is true and real. It IS theft of service to not return a DVD...
I know because I've been tried and convicted of it.
There are lots of laws I don't agree with, but that doesn't change the law.

The whole problem with this whole debate is the fact that the old style of charging for IP is just outdated. You can't track individual digital copies, therefore you cannot charge for them.
It seems to me that it's up to the IP holders to find a way to deal with it. Throwing everyone in jail or propogandizing our children is not a very good way of dealing with it.

The system is certainly far from perfect, and it is a bad business model. But . . . the laws suffer from the influence of middlemen who see their bag of cash disappearing.

As several bands have shown, you can release mp3s for free and drive your sales, but that means record company executives are irrelevant. They would disappear if they hadn't been pouring so much money into the RIAA and other propaganda to justify their existence.

The system is flawed, but it is currently the law. Hopefully the free market will force a change in the system.

true

spam edited by ddp

danielsco, lightning struck!!! posts edited.

ROFLMAO!!!1!
That made my day.

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In the math portion, kids are instructed to interview their family and friends to add up the number of times they've either songlifted themselves, or assisted in others' songlifting activities by allowing them to copy music.

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The teachers part of the language arts and citizenship section is to send the data to the RIAA so they can sue the little kiddies.

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Citizenship apparently refers to learning the list of people supposedly deprived of their liveliehoods by songlifting. They include agents and music publishers.

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Yes, think of the poor agents and publishers who can't get that new beach house on their own private island. And look at their kids.. *wipes a tear from eye*
They can't get that mini bmw they always wanted.. *sobs*
How could you download that song?!?